WootBot


quality posts: 14 Private Messages WootBot

Staff

Apple 17" Quad-Core i7 MacBook Pro

Speed to First Woot:
57m 34.330s
First Sucker:
exclusivecpa
Last Wooter to Woot:
shockaklan
Last Purchase:
a year ago
Order Pace (rank):
Top 22% of Electronics Woots
Bottom 48% of all Woots
Woots Sold (rank):
Top 41% of Electronics Woots
Bottom 49% of all Woots

Purchaser Experience

  • 16% first woot
  • 7% second woot
  • 24% < 10 woots
  • 18% < 25 woots
  • 36% ≥ 25 woots

Purchaser Seniority

  • 13% joined today
  • 2% one week old
  • 7% one month old
  • 13% one year old
  • 64% > one year old

Quantity Breakdown

  • 100% bought 1

Percentage of Sales Per Hour

2%
4%
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0%
0%
0%
2%
2%
2%
4%
9%
7%
2%
7%
7%
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9%
2%
4%
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13%
2%
11%
12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Woots by State

zero wooters wootinglots of wooters wooting



Quality Posts


lichme


quality posts: 2856 Private Messages lichme

Item: Apple 17" Quad-Core i7 MacBook Pro
Price: $1,499.99
Shipping Options: $5 Standard
Condition: Factory Reconditioned

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Previous Similar Sales (May not be exact model)
7/14/2013 - $1,499.99-1,599 - 85 comment(s)
6/2/2013 - $1,619.99-1,699 - 60 comment(s)
5/17/2013 - $1,619.99-1,699 - 62 comment(s)


6/7/2013 - $1,620.00 (Woot Plus)
6/7/2013 - $1,700.00 (Woot Plus)

conanthelibrarian


quality posts: 3480 Private Messages conanthelibrarian

Check out this review from pcmag.com


conanthelibrarian


quality posts: 3480 Private Messages conanthelibrarian

Lot's of additional info on the productpage


musictom88


quality posts: 2 Private Messages musictom88

Since Apple is no longer producing 17" laptops, they are going to get harder and harder to find.

lichme


quality posts: 2856 Private Messages lichme

Is this compatible with my windows mouse?

edruil


quality posts: 0 Private Messages edruil

Just my 2 cents, but the components you are getting in a macbook pro like this is just nowhere near worth the $1500 price tag. Nowhere near.

It's basically a $600-$800 laptop in terms of components, so you are paying the rest for the style and the operating system. Not worth it.

bobjjones


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bobjjones

Will this run DOS?

Me!

skispeakeasy


quality posts: 31 Private Messages skispeakeasy
lichme wrote:Is this compatible with my windows mouse?



Probably. If you look hard enough, you can still find PS/2 adapters.


Done and done! ;)

quark613


quality posts: 11 Private Messages quark613

Glossy. Dealbreaker.

bucky4d4s


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bucky4d4s

Is this eligible for AppleCare?

RocRizzo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages RocRizzo
bobjjones wrote:Will this run DOS?



Yes it will, but you have to put it in a virtual machine.

"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

RocRizzo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages RocRizzo
edruil wrote:Just my 2 cents, but the components you are getting in a macbook pro like this is just nowhere near worth the $1500 price tag. Nowhere near.

It's basically a $600-$800 laptop in terms of components, so you are paying the rest for the style and the operating system. Not worth it.



So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body? I find that the durability of the MacBookPro, in this aspect is well worth the premium. I have one for more than three years, and lug it back and forth every day. It's been dropped, kicked, and tossed around, and works like a champ. The battery still lasts about five hours too!

"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

bigray57


quality posts: 10 Private Messages bigray57
RocRizzo wrote:So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body? I find that the durability of the MacBookPro, in this aspect is well worth the premium. I have one for more than three years, and lug it back and forth every day. It's been dropped, kicked, and tossed around, and works like a champ. The battery still lasts about five hours too!

AGREED. Once you go Mac you NEVER go back!!!

wootbert


quality posts: 1 Private Messages wootbert

No Model Number at Woot, and is that even the real product image?

Newegg has a 17 inch MacBook Pro for $100 less and without tax at least for me here in NY. Free shipping as well.

I wonder if it is the same or even a newer one. Compared to the product image it surely is.

Apple MacBook Pro MC725LL/A Macbook Intel Core i7 2.20GHz 17.0" Wide UXGA 4GB Memory 750GB HDD 5400rpm DVD±R/RW AMD Radeon HD 6750M


[MOD: Ours is FC725LL/A.

ThunderThighs


quality posts: 565 Private Messages ThunderThighs

Staff

bucky4d4s wrote:Is this eligible for AppleCare?


Yep. Per the features:

AppleCare protection plan eligible (not included)



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Slarti59


quality posts: 8 Private Messages Slarti59
wootbert wrote:No Model Number at Woot, and is that even the real product image?

Newegg has a 17 inch MacBook Pro for $100 less and without tax at least for me here in NY. Free shipping as well.

I wonder if it is the same or even a newer one. Compared to the product image it surely is.

Apple MacBook Pro MC725LL/A Macbook Intel Core i7 2.20GHz 17.0" Wide UXGA 4GB Memory 750GB HDD 5400rpm DVD±R/RW AMD Radeon HD 6750M



Woot has the model number up now. Looks like they're the same except the woot one is Apple Certified Refurbished with the 1 year warranty whereas the newegg one just has a 90 day limited warranty.

engineire


quality posts: 5 Private Messages engineire

Appears to be an early 2011 model and not the latest 17" version. Last one offered was a 2.5 GHz i7 processor late 2011. Would have been nice to see a 7200 HD too.

bronskrat


quality posts: 2 Private Messages bronskrat
RocRizzo wrote:Yes it will, but you have to put it in a virtual machine.



Or you can run it using Boot Camp.

gak0090


quality posts: 78 Private Messages gak0090
RocRizzo wrote:So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body? I find that the durability of the MacBookPro, in this aspect is well worth the premium. I have one for more than three years, and lug it back and forth every day. It's been dropped, kicked, and tossed around, and works like a champ. The battery still lasts about five hours too!



Didn't have to go very far: http://sellout.woot.com/
This is smaller, lighter, has a 256 gb SSD, USB 3.0, and despite being only 1600 x 900 resolution- it's on a 13.3 inch screen which gives it a higher pixel density than today's laptop (138ppi vs 133ppi). It weighs 2.87 lbs vs 6.6 lbs for that big old Mac and it has better battery life.

regassert


quality posts: 0 Private Messages regassert
gak0090 wrote:Didn't have to go very far: http://sellout.woot.com/
This is smaller, lighter, has a 256 gb SSD, USB 3.0, and despite being only 1600 x 900 resolution- it's on a 13.3 inch screen which gives it a higher pixel density than today's laptop (138ppi vs 133ppi). It weighs 2.87 lbs vs 6.6 lbs for that big old Mac and it has better battery life.



I am no Mac fanboy, but this is an awful comparison. Far different screen size, far different storage capacity and far different intended uses. You would spend just as much to get a 17" PC with the build quality of the MBP. That isn't fanboy talk, that's real talk.

Now if you wanted to argue that too much of the price of Apples products are dependent on the "wow" factor of the build quality, then you would have a talking point.

gak0090


quality posts: 78 Private Messages gak0090
regassert wrote:I am no Mac fanboy, but this is an awful comparison. Far different screen size, far different storage capacity and far different intended uses. You would spend just as much to get a 17" PC with the build quality of the MBP. That isn't fanboy talk, that's real talk.

Now if you wanted to argue that too much of the price of Apples products are dependent on the "wow" factor of the build quality, then you would have a talking point.



I didn't say this was a head to head comparison. That's not what the post was asking- read the other post again "So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body?" My comparison was based on value.

bluemaple


quality posts: 76 Private Messages bluemaple
regassert wrote:I am no Mac fanboy, but this is an awful comparison. Far different screen size, far different storage capacity and far different intended uses. You would spend just as much to get a 17" PC with the build quality of the MBP. That isn't fanboy talk, that's real talk.

Now if you wanted to argue that too much of the price of Apples products are dependent on the "wow" factor of the build quality, then you would have a talking point.


gak0090 wrote:I didn't say this was a head to head comparison. That's not what the post was asking- read the other post again "So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body?" My comparison was based on value.


@gak0090, that post didn't specify any of the other specs either, but since it was made in reference to this Woot, it was implied they were not talking about a 13.3 inch form factor or a tablet or a...

I happen to use Windows machines but if you've actually lived with a Mac (I have) the build quality (didn't say reliability) is clearly more solid and with a nicer design vs the comparable mostly aluminum Windows machine.

Some people appreciate those Mac attributes and are willing to pay the premium. Just like some people pay a premium for a car brand (insert your favorite comparison here).

(However this does not excuse the Mac snobs who simply want to be seen with Macs @ Starbucks.)

Jago3825


quality posts: 4 Private Messages Jago3825
wootbert wrote:No Model Number at Woot, and is that even the real product image?

Newegg has a 17 inch MacBook Pro for $100 less and without tax at least for me here in NY. Free shipping as well.

I wonder if it is the same or even a newer one. Compared to the product image it surely is.

Apple MacBook Pro MC725LL/A Macbook Intel Core i7 2.20GHz 17.0" Wide UXGA 4GB Memory 750GB HDD 5400rpm DVD±R/RW AMD Radeon HD 6750M


[MOD: Ours is FC725LL/A.



NewEggs is 3rd party refurbished which cannot be combined with AppleCare and only has a 90-day warranty. Woot's is Apple Factory Refurbished which CAN be upgraded with AppleCare and has a 1yr warranty. Not sure why Woot is advertising a SquareTrade 1YR warranty for an item that already has a 1yr warranty. Apple Factory Refurbished items are nice. It's I I've bought for the past 5+ years. Wifey's MacBook Air, 2 kids MacBook Pro 13's, and my MacBook Pro 15 and 17's were all Apple Factory Refurbished units and haven't had any issues with any of them

craigleslie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages craigleslie
RocRizzo wrote:So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body? I find that the durability of the MacBookPro, in this aspect is well worth the premium. I have one for more than three years, and lug it back and forth every day. It's been dropped, kicked, and tossed around, and works like a champ. The battery still lasts about five hours too!



mine. i'm using a inspiron 15z. i7. solid state drive touch screen, metal finish, and no douchieness that you get from owning an apple or preis.

ThunderThighs


quality posts: 565 Private Messages ThunderThighs

Staff

Jago3825 wrote:NewEggs is 3rd party refurbished which cannot be combined with AppleCare and only has a 90-day warranty. Woot's is Apple Factory Refurbished which CAN be upgraded with AppleCare and has a 1yr warranty. Not sure why Woot is advertising a SquareTrade 1YR warranty for an item that already has a 1yr warranty. Apple Factory Refurbished items are nice. It's I I've bought for the past 5+ years. Wifey's MacBook Air, 2 kids MacBook Pro 13's, and my MacBook Pro 15 and 17's were all Apple Factory Refurbished units and haven't had any issues with any of them



Per the SquareTrade FAQ: When does my coverage begin:

If your item is refurbished and has a warranty of at least 90 days ("MSP"), your coverage begins upon expiration of the warranty and lasts for the number of years of coverage you specify at purchase time.


So a SqTr warranty would extend your coverage past the 1 year Apple warranty.



FORUM MODERATOR
To contact Customer Service, use the SUPPORT form at the top of every woot page
••• ► Woot's Return Policy ◄ ••• ► Did you check your spam/junk folders for a CS reply?
CANCEL?? How to cancel your order in the first 15 minutes!! - except Woot-Offs & expedited orders

gak0090


quality posts: 78 Private Messages gak0090
bluemaple wrote:@gak0090, that post didn't specify any of the other specs either, but since it was made in reference to this Woot, it was implied they were not talking about a 13.3 inch form factor or a tablet or a...

I happen to use Windows machines but if you've actually lived with a Mac (I have) the build quality (didn't say reliability) is clearly more solid and with a nicer design vs the comparable mostly aluminum Windows machine.

Some people appreciate those Mac attributes and are willing to pay the premium. Just like some people pay a premium for a car brand (insert your favorite comparison here).

(However this does not excuse the Mac snobs who simply want to be seen with Macs @ Starbucks.)



If you are going to make a broad statement "So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body?" with all that cockiness you should state your criteria for comparison. The example I gave met the criteria of the question and in certain regards exceeded the specifications of today's woot. People need to understand that there is nothing magical about wrapping a laptop in aluminum - who cares? This laptop today doesn't even have USB 3.0. It's old tech with a nice 1920x1200 panel- that's the only decent thing here.

You want a sweet laptop for a good price
I7-4700mq, 1920x1080, 15.6 inch (starts at $829 but configures up): https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp9
If you don't like (or can't use it) Ubuntu, you can load Windows on it.

bluemaple


quality posts: 76 Private Messages bluemaple
craigleslie wrote:mine. i'm using a inspiron 15z. i7. solid state drive touch screen, metal finish, and no douchieness that you get from owning an apple or preis.


@craigleslie, I've used a Dell 15z. Its a nice machine and great that you're happy with it. But it's no Mac with respect to solidity and design.

If I had the discretionary cash, I would be using Macs. And I'd simply ignore the folks who were somehow offended by it.

bluemaple


quality posts: 76 Private Messages bluemaple
gak0090 wrote: . . . People need to understand that there is nothing magical about wrapping a laptop in aluminum - who cares?. . .

You want a sweet laptop for a good price
I7-4700mq, 1920x1080, 15.6 inch (starts at $829 but configures up): https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp9
If you don't like (or can't use it) Ubuntu, you can load Windows on it.


@gak0090, 'not sure what a geeky Ubuntu Linux operating system optimized laptop has to do with mainstream Macs. Good luck taking that in to your local equivalent Apple Genius Bar for support.

I could machine a hunk of solid aircraft grade aluminum into a laptop case and put a top of the line Windows laptop motherboard & screen in it. But that wouldn't make it an Apple.

Point is people buy Macs for more reasons than what the case material is. If you don't like Macs, don't buy them.

Luke warm review for a System76:
http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2012/08/system-76/

craigleslie


quality posts: 0 Private Messages craigleslie
bluemaple wrote:@craigleslie, I've used a Dell 15z. Its a nice machine and great that you're happy with it. But it's no Mac with respect to solidity and design.

If I had the discretionary cash, I would be using Macs. And I'd simply ignore the folks who were somehow offended by it.



seriously, they All have the exact same components. look up the price of alm. it's not that high. those of us who actually know what in computers, and how to take care of them, know better then to fall for apple's false elitism. it's a waste of $$$. simple as that. are they ok, sure, as i said they don't sell low end. but only a fool would pay for a name that consists of the exact same components.

gak0090


quality posts: 78 Private Messages gak0090
bluemaple wrote:@gak0090, 'not sure what a geeky Ubuntu Linux operating system optimized laptop has to do with mainstream Macs. Good luck taking that in to your local equivalent Apple Genius Bar for support.

I could machine a hunk of solid aircraft grade aluminum into a laptop case and put a top of the line Windows laptop motherboard & screen in it. But that wouldn't make it an Apple.

Point is people buy Macs for more reasons than what the case material is. If you don't like Macs, don't buy them.

Luke warm review for a System76:
http://www.wired.com/geekmom/2012/08/system-76/



Linux has come a long way, and don't be surprised if/when it surpasses both windows and Mac. Like I clearly stated above, If you don't like Ubuntu, you can load windows on it. The review you linked is not similar in any way to the laptop that I linked- it's a year old, an I5 and a different sized display- not pertinent with any regards to the product I mentioned.

So Apple makes their own motherboards now? I knew that Foxconn use to make them (possibly still does), maybe Intel makes them- either way they aren't anything magical or special or even that different than the motherboards that go into Windows laptops.

Hardware is hardware. Generally the adoption of newer innovation happens on the windows side first because you have many different manufacturers competing with each other to make a better product.

If you like Apple because you need their OS to function, and the programs you specifically use function better in that environment- I can totally buy that reasoning. If you are trying to argue that for 99% of general computing tasks Apple has some sort of cosmic hardware and software advantage- I laugh and say you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. And I'll be the first to admit, Apple has pretty covers.

MichXelle


quality posts: 38 Private Messages MichXelle
Slarti59 wrote:Woot has the model number up now. Looks like they're the same except the woot one is Apple Certified Refurbished with the 1 year warranty whereas the newegg one just has a 90 day limited warranty.


Worth $100 more for 9 more months of Apple warranty.

OVER 550 W00T CARTFULS as of 06/25/14. You're killing us with some wonderful items W000T!

OVER 8 years on W00T shopping and The W00T Forum, since 02/06 with now a whopping 34 Quality Posts L-M-A-O! We do post quality information as do others that isn't recognized. Thanks for the 3 in 1 entire week! We're humbled. 3 additional noticed in 3 months. No more positive posts as our are not noticed.

MichXelle


quality posts: 38 Private Messages MichXelle
ThunderThighs wrote:Per the SquareTrade FAQ: When does my coverage begin:

If your item is refurbished and has a warranty of at least 90 days ("MSP"), your coverage begins upon expiration of the warranty and lasts for the number of years of coverage you specify at purchase time.


So a SqTr warranty would extend your coverage past the 1 year Apple warranty.


If going for SqTrade Google for a coupon code. I usually get 20% off.

OVER 550 W00T CARTFULS as of 06/25/14. You're killing us with some wonderful items W000T!

OVER 8 years on W00T shopping and The W00T Forum, since 02/06 with now a whopping 34 Quality Posts L-M-A-O! We do post quality information as do others that isn't recognized. Thanks for the 3 in 1 entire week! We're humbled. 3 additional noticed in 3 months. No more positive posts as our are not noticed.

thecorrectline


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thecorrectline
RocRizzo wrote:So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body? I find that the durability of the MacBookPro, in this aspect is well worth the premium. I have one for more than three years, and lug it back and forth every day. It's been dropped, kicked, and tossed around, and works like a champ. The battery still lasts about five hours too!



Or I could take my budget of $1,629.15 (estimated total w/shipping +tax on this woot) and go over to Sager and buy one of these. But you keep feeling good about paying through the nose for that aluminum. http://www.sagernotebook.com/index.php?page=product_info&model_name=NP8290

Please compare the specs and let me know which one you would recommend.

transfigure


quality posts: 3 Private Messages transfigure

For the love of St. Wootsis, can we please have a discussion about a Mac without someone complaining about the cost of Macs and someone else rising to the troll bait?

To add something productive, I've had good experiences with Applecare and Apple customer service in general. One difference between the 1-year SquareTrade warranty and AppleCare is that Applecare extends your warranty by two years instead of one. Of course, it's more expensive too.

zonkerrob


quality posts: 5 Private Messages zonkerrob
gak0090 wrote:If you are going to make a broad statement "So perhaps you can tell me what $600-$800 laptop has an all aluminum body?" with all that cockiness you should state your criteria for comparison. The example I gave met the criteria of the question and in certain regards exceeded the specifications of today's woot. People need to understand that there is nothing magical about wrapping a laptop in aluminum - who cares? This laptop today doesn't even have USB 3.0. It's old tech with a nice 1920x1200 panel- that's the only decent thing here.

You want a sweet laptop for a good price
I7-4700mq, 1920x1080, 15.6 inch (starts at $829 but configures up): https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp9
If you don't like (or can't use it) Ubuntu, you can load Windows on it.



A "sweet laptop" would not have a MISALIGNED VGA PORT ON THE MAIN IMAGE OF THEIR FLAGSHIP MACHINE FEATURED ON THE FRONT PAGE.

This "sweet laptop" is to a Mac what a 1978 Chevy Citation is to, well, anything made decently EVER.

It may not be a definitive reason to reject this item, but it tells me it's most ardent fans probably have pretty low standards generally.

djames42


quality posts: 9 Private Messages djames42
thecorrectline wrote:Please compare the specs and let me know which one you would recommend.



In every Mac vs PC argument, there are always the spec whores just as there are in every Android vs iOS argument. Raw specs are nice if you're just looking at how quickly your home movies will compress down to mkv, I agree. But there's a lot more to using a computer than how fast it runs.

Personally, I choose to spend more money because I find the experience of using a Mac to be far more pleasant. I don't for a moment make it sound like I'm superior because of it; I just personally find the experience of using Microsoft products to be as pleasant as repeatedly beating my head against a wall. Full of nails. Rusty nails. Pointy-edge sticking out.

Furthermore (and I have posted this here before), I (until recently) was on a team of 24 application engineers. 23 of them were using company-provided equipment (HP and Dell). My Dell was immediately wiped clean with a fresh copy of CentOS installed. I then purchased my own Mac Mini to use in the office. Of the 24 of us, 23 had multiple instances (that is to say this happened to each of them multiple times over the life of their hardware) of downtime due to system corruption and other issues that forced re-imaging. One of us (me) had not a single moment of unplanned downtime.

So, what's more expensive then? A few hundred more in hardware costs, or thousands and thousands in lost productivity?

I'm now in a role where I use Windows (7) more often and so I run it in a VM on my Mac. It blue screens about once a month and applications (within the VM) crash from time-to-time. The host OS and its applications keep on going while the guest OS restarts, so I'm able to continue working. And I continue to roll my eyes in wonderment when I get the emails from my new teammates saying they'll be offline while IT re-images their laptops...

dogen83


quality posts: 1 Private Messages dogen83

I love computer geek fights. It's like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECyX8A3iP0

thecorrectline


quality posts: 0 Private Messages thecorrectline
djames42 wrote:In every Mac vs PC argument, there are always the spec whores just as there are in every Android vs iOS argument. Raw specs are nice if you're just looking at how quickly your home movies will compress down to mkv, I agree. But there's a lot more to using a computer than how fast it runs.

Personally, I choose to spend more money because I find the experience of using a Mac to be far more pleasant. I don't for a moment make it sound like I'm superior because of it; I just personally find the experience of using Microsoft products to be as pleasant as repeatedly beating my head against a wall. Full of nails. Rusty nails. Pointy-edge sticking out.

Furthermore (and I have posted this here before), I (until recently) was on a team of 24 application engineers. 23 of them were using company-provided equipment (HP and Dell). My Dell was immediately wiped clean with a fresh copy of CentOS installed. I then purchased my own Mac Mini to use in the office. Of the 24 of us, 23 had multiple instances (that is to say this happened to each of them multiple times over the life of their hardware) of downtime due to system corruption and other issues that forced re-imaging. One of us (me) had not a single moment of unplanned downtime.

So, what's more expensive then? A few hundred more in hardware costs, or thousands and thousands in lost productivity?

I'm now in a role where I use Windows (7) more often and so I run it in a VM on my Mac. It blue screens about once a month and applications (within the VM) crash from time-to-time. The host OS and its applications keep on going while the guest OS restarts, so I'm able to continue working. And I continue to roll my eyes in wonderment when I get the emails from my new teammates saying they'll be offline while IT re-images their laptops...



As a dev myself I also value extremely long compile times. With an Apple I can spend half the day flying my quadcopter on the roof, and when asked I just say "Compiling" and go back to making zoom! swoosh! noises. Wait, what was that you were saying about productivity?

gak0090


quality posts: 78 Private Messages gak0090
zonkerrob wrote:A "sweet laptop" would not have a MISALIGNED VGA PORT ON THE MAIN IMAGE OF THEIR FLAGSHIP MACHINE FEATURED ON THE FRONT PAGE.

This "sweet laptop" is to a Mac what a 1978 Chevy Citation is to, well, anything made decently EVER.

It may not be a definitive reason to reject this item, but it tells me it's most ardent fans probably have pretty low standards generally.



Not real sure if the alignment is off or it is the perspective of the view and the angle of the case. But let's say you are accurate... how about the alignment of the USB 3.0, the HDMI out, the esata, and the VGA on the Mac Book pro...oh wait, it doesn't have any of these features on this model.

So my 1978 Citation may not look as pretty, but it will haul butt, has state of the art sound system, navigation and electronics- while your pretty Mercedes has manual windows, AM radio and the engine of a smart car.